It makes me very sad that pastor didn’t see the obvious answer to that family’s solution. Either A. Explain that this is a one time scenario and the list will be ignored to show them what God’s grace towards sinners is or B. If the dad really had the courage of his convictions he should’ve had the boys hit him for their list. This only would work if the boys don’t want to hurt their father and would be themselves hurt by doing so but it would have been a powerful object lesson.
I've thought about that a lot. The children's pastor was a young, unmarried seminary graduate with no kids. The whole thing was ridiculous. Extreme religiousness is the right wing version of being afraid of freedom, I think. Needing to be told what to do.
Oh. Yeah no. Nothing against unmarried, childless people but they aren’t the first ones you should be going to for childcare advice. If he’s that young (assuming marriage trends in the south) even in his area of expertise I’d be at least a little suspect because I know how little I knew in my areas of expertise at that time.
And yeah, that is a huge problem of humanity. We want to be sure we’re doing the right thing so we want an authority to give us a clear, correct answer so we don’t have to think it out ourselves and risk getting it wrong ourselves. Which is a great way to get things wrong.
Once again, Holly, you show yourself to be amazingly perceptive and truly human. I could not have said it any better or more truthfully: “Hamas is not going to surrender, and it is immoral beyond words to expect Israel to face extinction to protect the children of Gaza. No other group on earth, other than Jews, would be expected to face extinction to protect other people’s children.” Thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Thank you for a very reasonable discussion of spanking as a discipline. I grew up in Catholic schools soon after they had ditched corporal punishment, and sometimes I thought the psychological guilt trips I experienced were worse than a spanking (but not a serious injury beating) would have been. The alternative "humiliation ritual" system you describe (serious physical punishment followed directly by comfort or pleasure) is actually a classic brainwashing technique used to subvert the minds of those who undergo it into submissive beyond the ability to think for themselves. Very frightening that it was and still is recommended by anyone in authority for use on one's children.
Also thank you for the link on the data scientist view of the casualty numbers from Hamas. I know enough not to trust them simply because they come from a group whose undeniable major strategy is to use civilians as human shields. In the old days when humor was still allowed, such a strategy was parodied by one of the issues of National Lampoon. They showed a cute dog on the cover with a gun pointed to its head, and the headline, "Buy this magazine, or we'll shoot this dog." In real life these kinds of situations are what led to special police training after the Onion Field Killings. In situations designed to manipulate your emotions and human instincts, you have to have been trained to act rationally instead of following your heart.
It is nice to see you dive deep into complex issues and hash them out. This is not to say that everything has been solved nice and neatly. But such discussions are important.
I once heard a man relate the story of how he dealt with a discipline issue with his young children. They had done something they knew they shouldn’t. He explained to them that whenever there is misbehavior someone must be punished.
He could not bring himself to spank his children in spite of being raised to believe that it was the way to do things. So, he told his children that he would take the punishment in their place.
I don’t remember the specifics, but I think they had to find a big stick. Then each one of them had to strike him several times. He said they were both bawling while doing it reluctantly.
He said that he never again had a single discipline issue with either of his children.
Thank you for this. It is good to know that I am not alone in my support for Israel nor in the reasons why. Your way of dealing with it brings up memories of difficult discussions, often with myself, over history. I am struggling now to recall the exact episode/s but think that they dealt with WW2 and the bombings, fire and atomic of Japan. I am American, a veteran of the US navy. My grandfather is a WW2 US navy vet as is my great uncle. At a little beyond 50, I have spent most of my adult life and almost half of my life in Japan. My wife and kids are Japanese. I think it was in the context of dealing with this or these that I have said “Do not, under any circumstances put anyone in a situation where they must decide between their kid’s lives and your life.”, though it applies to any situation, really.
On spanking. This is difficult. As a child, I was rarely spanked. It had its desired effect upon myself. Other punishments were usually sufficient in my case. On my younger brother, not at all. With both, my parents used it as a last resort, when everything else failed. Everything else includes, extra chores, no allowance for a period of time, no TV, being sent to bed without dessert or in some cases without dinner and being grounded. None of these worked on my brother, so he was spanked much more than I. But “beat”, he was not.
Now, I am not a father of children with the oldest being 10. He has long been a misbehaving child who frequently just flat refuses to do what he is told and back talks as if not only acceptable but required. He has been spanked just twice, however. Both cases were because he hit his mother. I once hit him hard enough on his hard foam bicycle helmet that I spirit in two. He refused to follow my instructions and as a result and only with the grace of God had just escaped major injury or death from the car he rode out in front of. I still do not know how he was not hit. I needed to get through his thick head in that very moment, then and there, that he must listen to me and pay attention and look both ways before riding out in the street. If I didn’t, he may not have made it home alive.
We tried every method we can think of or find for over ten years to correct the worst of his behavior, those that will lead to homelessness or crime but nothing has worked. At ten, he thinks he knows all there is to know, that both his parents are idiots and does not care what we say. He is going to get himself severely hurt or killed if we cannot correct his bad behavior. Sadly, he gets smacked or hit with my finger a lot lately, because that has so far been the only way I can get him to stop misbehaving. He reminds me so much of my younger brother, who has been and probably still is a petty criminal. However, spanking, grounding, having all his toys thrown out by our mother who was bawling her eyes out as she did so, and counseling did not correct my brother enough. It may be he would be in prison for causing great harm had these methods not been used upon him though, but we can never know.
Then there is this which I wrote to share elsewhere. After my time in the navy was up, I attended college. Despite being on the GI bill, funds were needed so I worked third shift at a gas station just off the interstate. We provided free coffee to police, paramedics and firefighters. One night in the late 90s while the local cops were having their coffee break, Officer “Smith”, let’s call him, shouted out a profanity. This shocked me, not for the profanity for I had served in the navy, but because Officer Smith was the friendliest, calmest and most laid back of all the officers I knew and I had never witnessed him agitated in the slightest. Curious, I inquired. “This is the 5th time tonight I have gotten a call on the same 17 year old girl who keeps running away.” He explained as he headed for the door. “Five times in one night, I would lock her in her room.”, I said. Officer Smith performed a right about and charged at me, pointing his finger at me and bellowed, “YOU. CAN’T. DO. THAT. That’s unlawful imprisonment!” In such a manner that if you had witnessed it, you would have thought he was angry at me. He was not. After making this statement, he spun around again and headed for the door a second time. I called after with”Then I would lock her out.” In a repeat performance differing little from his last, again Officer Smith performed a right about and charged at me, pointing his finger at me and bellowed, “YOU. CAN’T. DO. THAT. That’s unlawful abandonment. And, if your little darling steals a car, YOU are financially and legally responsible. If she causes any damage, YOU are responsible. If, God forbid, she hurts or kills anyone, YOU are responsible! And the kids know this because their teachers tell them!” Stunned into silence, I said nothing more as he successfully made it out the door on his third attempt. He clearly was not happy being involved in this situation caused by bad law.
That was 25 or so years ago. I do not think it can be denied that many in their adult years still have yet to learn that there are consequences to their decisions, actions and inactions. A great many in our country act as if and state that they do not accept that they are responsible for the consequences to their actions and get furious when told, just told, otherwise. Is spanking the answer? I do not know, but there is clearly something different in child raising that is turning out college kids in the States that throw a fit just as my kids did when they were three. Spanking worked on me.
I am now, as I just finished typing the above, thinking that the pastor who gave advice that you overheard may have been correct and that the situation with Israel is or at least may be an example of why. The boys played a role in deciding their punishments for misbehaving, and they misbehaved anyway. They acted as if they did not accept that they would actually have to bear the consequences they agreed upon. Is that not similar to what happens with Hamas and Israel? They negotiate and agree on terms. Like the parents, Israel expects the other side to not do anything that would cause them to give the agreed upon punishments. Then Hamas misbehaves and Israel balks at meting out the agreed upon punishments in full, because they will be at it all day and it will hurt the Palestinians too much. Hamas thus learns that they can do what they want and if punished, it will not be all that severe. What would have happened if Israel always meted out the full punishment? I think this would have ended long ago, as it did stop your friends from misbehaving for a long time thereafter.
Does that mean straight to the spank? Depends. Not at first, I would hope, but if history with the child proves that not doing so is just a dangerous waste of time, then for that child, perhaps.
I am not a proponent of spanking, but I am against banning it. I greatly prefer positive reenforcement over negative reenforcement. However, when positive reenforcement fails, then progressively worse negative reenforcement measures are called for.
It long past time for Hams to be spanked into oblivion.
Please forgive me for the unsolicited advice, but have you considered putting your son in martial arts? Your story reminds me very much of a boy I used to know. Martial arts worked wonders for him, got him channeling his iron will and excess of adrenaline into positive directions. Got the aggression out, and the sensei did what I think all the good ones do -- was very cooperative and conversant with parents. He wanted to know who was keeping their grades up and who wasn't, who was behaving at home and who wasn't, and made the right to test for the next belt up contingent on parents signing off that the kid was respectful and studious. As the cool stuff had minimum ranks (you had to be a green belt to spar, a blue belt to break boards, etc.) the right to test for the next belt was a very shiny object that kids were highly motivated to earn.
He and his mother practice shorinji. this has been a major point of contention. I used to practice and wish I could return to Kendo, Japanese fencing. I have been with my son only a few times at their doin. His behavior would not be accepted in any of my kendo dojos. He and we his parents, have been counseled on his behavior. His mother brushes this criticism off. But last Saturday, he apparently did not practice and his mother was angry. However, she has him swimming 4 days a week, including every Saturday and Sunday from 7:30 am and cram school , now three nights a week until 8:30 pm and three tests a month on weekends. The poor kid had no time for anything other than study study study, swim swim swim and tests. He does not get enough sleep. His behavior problems stated before this crazy schedule and have only gotten worse. We have argued often over this and I am at a loss how to solve this. She is, I believe, on the spectrum of insanity. With me, she continually demands that two mutually exclusive situations exist simultaneously and with our son she schedules over 20 hours of activities or more a day. Add this to his natural character and things are not good.
No worries about advice, I am seeking a solution and am fresh out of ideas.
We had a very difficult 3rd child and I'm happy to say he is a happy, contributing adult. We tried many of the things you mentioned, including corporal punishment (never in anger) when he was endangering himself. I can think of 2 instances where he got to experience the direct consequences of his choices. One was when I received a phone call from the local PD checking on us as they had received a 911 hang-up from our phone. My brain immediately went to an earlier in the day episode when the 5-yr-old was denied something and he said he was going to call the police. The operator was satisfied all was good, but I asked if there was a LEO in the area who could stop by. The biggest, baddest cop I had even seen rang the doorbell a little bit later. He had a talk with the youngster who seemed paralyzed the entire time. The other was a daily struggle to get him dressed (he literally fought me) and out the door. One day I decided he was going to learn the value of clothing. It was about 40 degrees outside and I plunked him out the front door in his thin PJ's, along with the clothes and jacket for the day. The first 30 seconds he was banging on the door, unwilling to give up, then there was an amazing transformation. We have 3 children, and each is their own person. They can rarely be treated the same. I agree, Hamas has to go for the sake of everyone in Gaza and Israel.
Great perspective Holly. Thank you for presenting the argument so well.
On the subject of disciplining children, I have loved the anecdote below by Hiram Percy Maxim (No, not that Maxim, of the first machine gun; but rather his son.) from when he was about 8; from when I first read it also about 8. I highly recommend the chapter linked below - "A Scientific Whipping" - for all parents; and for all young children; and in particular for occasionally rambunctious boys. It absolutely IS rated G - for general audiences and approved for children.
Amen, Hollycita - well said.
Excellent post.
It makes me very sad that pastor didn’t see the obvious answer to that family’s solution. Either A. Explain that this is a one time scenario and the list will be ignored to show them what God’s grace towards sinners is or B. If the dad really had the courage of his convictions he should’ve had the boys hit him for their list. This only would work if the boys don’t want to hurt their father and would be themselves hurt by doing so but it would have been a powerful object lesson.
I've thought about that a lot. The children's pastor was a young, unmarried seminary graduate with no kids. The whole thing was ridiculous. Extreme religiousness is the right wing version of being afraid of freedom, I think. Needing to be told what to do.
Oh. Yeah no. Nothing against unmarried, childless people but they aren’t the first ones you should be going to for childcare advice. If he’s that young (assuming marriage trends in the south) even in his area of expertise I’d be at least a little suspect because I know how little I knew in my areas of expertise at that time.
And yeah, that is a huge problem of humanity. We want to be sure we’re doing the right thing so we want an authority to give us a clear, correct answer so we don’t have to think it out ourselves and risk getting it wrong ourselves. Which is a great way to get things wrong.
Once again, Holly, you show yourself to be amazingly perceptive and truly human. I could not have said it any better or more truthfully: “Hamas is not going to surrender, and it is immoral beyond words to expect Israel to face extinction to protect the children of Gaza. No other group on earth, other than Jews, would be expected to face extinction to protect other people’s children.” Thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Thank you for a very reasonable discussion of spanking as a discipline. I grew up in Catholic schools soon after they had ditched corporal punishment, and sometimes I thought the psychological guilt trips I experienced were worse than a spanking (but not a serious injury beating) would have been. The alternative "humiliation ritual" system you describe (serious physical punishment followed directly by comfort or pleasure) is actually a classic brainwashing technique used to subvert the minds of those who undergo it into submissive beyond the ability to think for themselves. Very frightening that it was and still is recommended by anyone in authority for use on one's children.
Also thank you for the link on the data scientist view of the casualty numbers from Hamas. I know enough not to trust them simply because they come from a group whose undeniable major strategy is to use civilians as human shields. In the old days when humor was still allowed, such a strategy was parodied by one of the issues of National Lampoon. They showed a cute dog on the cover with a gun pointed to its head, and the headline, "Buy this magazine, or we'll shoot this dog." In real life these kinds of situations are what led to special police training after the Onion Field Killings. In situations designed to manipulate your emotions and human instincts, you have to have been trained to act rationally instead of following your heart.
Yes. It is important to value justice.
It is nice to see you dive deep into complex issues and hash them out. This is not to say that everything has been solved nice and neatly. But such discussions are important.
I once heard a man relate the story of how he dealt with a discipline issue with his young children. They had done something they knew they shouldn’t. He explained to them that whenever there is misbehavior someone must be punished.
He could not bring himself to spank his children in spite of being raised to believe that it was the way to do things. So, he told his children that he would take the punishment in their place.
I don’t remember the specifics, but I think they had to find a big stick. Then each one of them had to strike him several times. He said they were both bawling while doing it reluctantly.
He said that he never again had a single discipline issue with either of his children.
Very well stated!
Ont of your best for an age. A genuinely unique slant on the issue of the day. Gave me a great mental model. Thanks
Thank you! ❤️
You deserve it
Thank you for this. It is good to know that I am not alone in my support for Israel nor in the reasons why. Your way of dealing with it brings up memories of difficult discussions, often with myself, over history. I am struggling now to recall the exact episode/s but think that they dealt with WW2 and the bombings, fire and atomic of Japan. I am American, a veteran of the US navy. My grandfather is a WW2 US navy vet as is my great uncle. At a little beyond 50, I have spent most of my adult life and almost half of my life in Japan. My wife and kids are Japanese. I think it was in the context of dealing with this or these that I have said “Do not, under any circumstances put anyone in a situation where they must decide between their kid’s lives and your life.”, though it applies to any situation, really.
On spanking. This is difficult. As a child, I was rarely spanked. It had its desired effect upon myself. Other punishments were usually sufficient in my case. On my younger brother, not at all. With both, my parents used it as a last resort, when everything else failed. Everything else includes, extra chores, no allowance for a period of time, no TV, being sent to bed without dessert or in some cases without dinner and being grounded. None of these worked on my brother, so he was spanked much more than I. But “beat”, he was not.
Now, I am not a father of children with the oldest being 10. He has long been a misbehaving child who frequently just flat refuses to do what he is told and back talks as if not only acceptable but required. He has been spanked just twice, however. Both cases were because he hit his mother. I once hit him hard enough on his hard foam bicycle helmet that I spirit in two. He refused to follow my instructions and as a result and only with the grace of God had just escaped major injury or death from the car he rode out in front of. I still do not know how he was not hit. I needed to get through his thick head in that very moment, then and there, that he must listen to me and pay attention and look both ways before riding out in the street. If I didn’t, he may not have made it home alive.
We tried every method we can think of or find for over ten years to correct the worst of his behavior, those that will lead to homelessness or crime but nothing has worked. At ten, he thinks he knows all there is to know, that both his parents are idiots and does not care what we say. He is going to get himself severely hurt or killed if we cannot correct his bad behavior. Sadly, he gets smacked or hit with my finger a lot lately, because that has so far been the only way I can get him to stop misbehaving. He reminds me so much of my younger brother, who has been and probably still is a petty criminal. However, spanking, grounding, having all his toys thrown out by our mother who was bawling her eyes out as she did so, and counseling did not correct my brother enough. It may be he would be in prison for causing great harm had these methods not been used upon him though, but we can never know.
Then there is this which I wrote to share elsewhere. After my time in the navy was up, I attended college. Despite being on the GI bill, funds were needed so I worked third shift at a gas station just off the interstate. We provided free coffee to police, paramedics and firefighters. One night in the late 90s while the local cops were having their coffee break, Officer “Smith”, let’s call him, shouted out a profanity. This shocked me, not for the profanity for I had served in the navy, but because Officer Smith was the friendliest, calmest and most laid back of all the officers I knew and I had never witnessed him agitated in the slightest. Curious, I inquired. “This is the 5th time tonight I have gotten a call on the same 17 year old girl who keeps running away.” He explained as he headed for the door. “Five times in one night, I would lock her in her room.”, I said. Officer Smith performed a right about and charged at me, pointing his finger at me and bellowed, “YOU. CAN’T. DO. THAT. That’s unlawful imprisonment!” In such a manner that if you had witnessed it, you would have thought he was angry at me. He was not. After making this statement, he spun around again and headed for the door a second time. I called after with”Then I would lock her out.” In a repeat performance differing little from his last, again Officer Smith performed a right about and charged at me, pointing his finger at me and bellowed, “YOU. CAN’T. DO. THAT. That’s unlawful abandonment. And, if your little darling steals a car, YOU are financially and legally responsible. If she causes any damage, YOU are responsible. If, God forbid, she hurts or kills anyone, YOU are responsible! And the kids know this because their teachers tell them!” Stunned into silence, I said nothing more as he successfully made it out the door on his third attempt. He clearly was not happy being involved in this situation caused by bad law.
That was 25 or so years ago. I do not think it can be denied that many in their adult years still have yet to learn that there are consequences to their decisions, actions and inactions. A great many in our country act as if and state that they do not accept that they are responsible for the consequences to their actions and get furious when told, just told, otherwise. Is spanking the answer? I do not know, but there is clearly something different in child raising that is turning out college kids in the States that throw a fit just as my kids did when they were three. Spanking worked on me.
I am now, as I just finished typing the above, thinking that the pastor who gave advice that you overheard may have been correct and that the situation with Israel is or at least may be an example of why. The boys played a role in deciding their punishments for misbehaving, and they misbehaved anyway. They acted as if they did not accept that they would actually have to bear the consequences they agreed upon. Is that not similar to what happens with Hamas and Israel? They negotiate and agree on terms. Like the parents, Israel expects the other side to not do anything that would cause them to give the agreed upon punishments. Then Hamas misbehaves and Israel balks at meting out the agreed upon punishments in full, because they will be at it all day and it will hurt the Palestinians too much. Hamas thus learns that they can do what they want and if punished, it will not be all that severe. What would have happened if Israel always meted out the full punishment? I think this would have ended long ago, as it did stop your friends from misbehaving for a long time thereafter.
Does that mean straight to the spank? Depends. Not at first, I would hope, but if history with the child proves that not doing so is just a dangerous waste of time, then for that child, perhaps.
I am not a proponent of spanking, but I am against banning it. I greatly prefer positive reenforcement over negative reenforcement. However, when positive reenforcement fails, then progressively worse negative reenforcement measures are called for.
It long past time for Hams to be spanked into oblivion.
Thank you for the thought-provoking comment.
Please forgive me for the unsolicited advice, but have you considered putting your son in martial arts? Your story reminds me very much of a boy I used to know. Martial arts worked wonders for him, got him channeling his iron will and excess of adrenaline into positive directions. Got the aggression out, and the sensei did what I think all the good ones do -- was very cooperative and conversant with parents. He wanted to know who was keeping their grades up and who wasn't, who was behaving at home and who wasn't, and made the right to test for the next belt up contingent on parents signing off that the kid was respectful and studious. As the cool stuff had minimum ranks (you had to be a green belt to spar, a blue belt to break boards, etc.) the right to test for the next belt was a very shiny object that kids were highly motivated to earn.
He and his mother practice shorinji. this has been a major point of contention. I used to practice and wish I could return to Kendo, Japanese fencing. I have been with my son only a few times at their doin. His behavior would not be accepted in any of my kendo dojos. He and we his parents, have been counseled on his behavior. His mother brushes this criticism off. But last Saturday, he apparently did not practice and his mother was angry. However, she has him swimming 4 days a week, including every Saturday and Sunday from 7:30 am and cram school , now three nights a week until 8:30 pm and three tests a month on weekends. The poor kid had no time for anything other than study study study, swim swim swim and tests. He does not get enough sleep. His behavior problems stated before this crazy schedule and have only gotten worse. We have argued often over this and I am at a loss how to solve this. She is, I believe, on the spectrum of insanity. With me, she continually demands that two mutually exclusive situations exist simultaneously and with our son she schedules over 20 hours of activities or more a day. Add this to his natural character and things are not good.
No worries about advice, I am seeking a solution and am fresh out of ideas.
We had a very difficult 3rd child and I'm happy to say he is a happy, contributing adult. We tried many of the things you mentioned, including corporal punishment (never in anger) when he was endangering himself. I can think of 2 instances where he got to experience the direct consequences of his choices. One was when I received a phone call from the local PD checking on us as they had received a 911 hang-up from our phone. My brain immediately went to an earlier in the day episode when the 5-yr-old was denied something and he said he was going to call the police. The operator was satisfied all was good, but I asked if there was a LEO in the area who could stop by. The biggest, baddest cop I had even seen rang the doorbell a little bit later. He had a talk with the youngster who seemed paralyzed the entire time. The other was a daily struggle to get him dressed (he literally fought me) and out the door. One day I decided he was going to learn the value of clothing. It was about 40 degrees outside and I plunked him out the front door in his thin PJ's, along with the clothes and jacket for the day. The first 30 seconds he was banging on the door, unwilling to give up, then there was an amazing transformation. We have 3 children, and each is their own person. They can rarely be treated the same. I agree, Hamas has to go for the sake of everyone in Gaza and Israel.
Great perspective Holly. Thank you for presenting the argument so well.
On the subject of disciplining children, I have loved the anecdote below by Hiram Percy Maxim (No, not that Maxim, of the first machine gun; but rather his son.) from when he was about 8; from when I first read it also about 8. I highly recommend the chapter linked below - "A Scientific Whipping" - for all parents; and for all young children; and in particular for occasionally rambunctious boys. It absolutely IS rated G - for general audiences and approved for children.
Link: https://lateralscience.blogspot.com/2014/11/a-genius-in-family-by-hiram-percy-maxim.html
The whole book is there, so search for "whipping" and you will land in exactly the right place. You will chuckle, and smile, as the story unfolds.
I just admire so much the way your mind works and how well you articulate what's on it. You have nailed it, again.
Thank you, and thank you for reading!