What an absolute cluster fuck. I laughed at your massive 'notalls' notice. As far as trashy TV goes I've always been partial to 90 day fiance before the 90 days. It's madness. Madness I tell you!
It really is. I’m so proud of Christine for getting out. She grew up in that religion, and I know from personal experience how hard it is to walk away from something you’ve been steeped in all your life. She’s amazing.
The numbers were helpful. I've read a ton of Russian novels and it still required a bit of mental mapping to put it all in order. Yeah that must be quite the thing. I remember how much I needed to re learn when I stumbled out of the woke fog in my early 20's. I can only imagine how much bigger that would be for someone who's been in it their whole life, all wrapped up in spirituality and the community and everything. Quite the journey.
I fking LOVE her qualifying, note-to-reader statements. I love her writing and content, sure, but it's idiosyncrasies like this that are at least as endearing as the writing itself. Because I get it. I personally don't bother with "not alls" because we're adults, nuance is a default. If you treat someone's personal opinion like a blanket statement and affront to your "lived experience" you're a moron who should have the internet taken away from you and replaced with a See n' Say until you can have mature interactions.
This is a reality show, right? I've never watched any t.v. reality shows, and honestly, I was pretty surprised when you first mentioned your enthusiasm about Sister Wives. Glad you decided to explain what there is about it that keeps you engaged and fascinated.
Regarding Kody, I think he represents what most men, who are relatively "normal", want in their love interest or mate, and that's RESPECT, coupled with a fair amount of submissiveness from the woman. Humans simply haven't evolved far enough for this to no longer be part of what men need (and women, too) in a relationship with a woman.
Most of you will probably hate me for saying this, but I believe wide use of the birth control pill, starting in the 60's, felled the main pillar that was holding up positive male/female relationships and marriage in general. I know it certainly affected my relationships. That and First Wave Feminism, which of course, I totally signed on to. Promoting women and men as equals in terms of their psychology and innate characteristics has caused a butt-load of problems for the institution of marriage. I used to believe that monogamy was out-dated and even harmful to marriage. After 3 divorces, I finally wised up. Sighhhhh, some people (like me) are just slow learners.
I don't believe in the idea of a soul-mate. I really wouldn't be surprised if Kody and the 4th wife don't end up divorced.
I don't hate you, LOL. But I think if you're right about this, it needed to fall. If so many women were so miserable that the ability to delay/space/avoid pregnancy caused the institution of marriage to die, then it needed to die. An institution built on 50% of human beings being that miserable is not a good institution.
The birth control pill, speaking only for myself, was a guarantee (at least for me) that I wouldn't have a child until I purposefully made the decision to get pregnant. Not having a child out of wedlock (as was I and my twin), was my main objective. If I hadn't had access to birth control like the pill, I would have been much more circumspect in my sexual behavior, which in my case would have been a plus. I would have also used the next most reliable method to avoid pregnancy, and if I got pregnant as a result, then it would be no one's fault but my own. My personal code of ethics includes taking full responsibility for the consequences of bringing a new life into the world, so short of celibacy, I would use every means available, except abortion, to avoid an unplanned pregnancy. The birth control pill saved me from the consequences of my behavior and I will always be grateful for that.
I don't take a rigid, hard stand against abortion. I believe it must be available in the case of incest, rape, or saving the life of the mother. What I am against is the careless use of it due to a woman's irresponsible lack of concern for her actions and relying on abortion to fix the mistake. Unfortunately, innocent mistakes do happen. I also believe that marriage is a cornerstone of a stable culture and the best environment in which to raise children. Of my 3 marriages, I had no children in the first two. My 3rd marriage, for the most part a happy and harmonious one, lasted long after my only child grew to adulthood. My ex and I remain friends. I don't think marriage becoming extinct is a good thing.
You and I sound as if we are from the same generation, and I confess to having some of the same thoughts about birth control. And I don't necessarily think women were miserable; I think probably both men and women had to accept and deal with situations that while not ideal, certainly were not "awful." Stable homes in which to raise and launch children are a huge reason not to divorce. I say that as a woman with more than one divorce under my belt. I would make several changes in my decisions if I could do it over again.
"It was so steady and so clearly a baseline norm. Announcing one wanted monogamy, and wanted it enough that it was a deal-breaker, was akin to announcing a bizarre deal-breaker, something like not allowing the color blue to be worn in one’s presence. It was so fully normalized that anyone who objected to it was taken to owe an explanation for this oddness."
Seriously? I've only been out of the dating market for 8 years and this was NOT the norm. The attitude was super accepting but few people participated and nobody was judgmental if someone was strictly monogamous.
No sir. If i was convinced that it wasn't a cowardly way out and would likely result in overall worse outcomes for my children i would seriously consider joining some sort of insular community.
That was my first reaction! I am so clearly out of the loop when it comes to dating/relationships now. I had no idea that polyamory was the baseline norm.
The language is sticky, as (sort of like "feminist" and "Christian" and lots of other words) people have their own definitions. But *in general*, polyamory is about wanting to have more than one ongoing/longterm *relationship* whereas ENM (ethical non-monogamy) is basically "I'm gonna screw around, sometimes with women I'm in relationships with, sometimes not, but I won't lie about it so you should approve."
Polygamy/polyamory just seem like a nightmare to me. Having that kind of emotionally intimate relationship with just one person is difficult enough. Trying to juggle it with one or more other only seems possible with a level of detachment that would make the whole thing moot.
And I can’t imagine trying to be a father to so many children. Though it sounds like Kody just isn’t being one.
I can't watch trashy shows and prefer shows that push me to a better me - even if one might consider them unrealistic. There's a reason we have always "put our best foot forward", and that "leading by example" is important even if one isn't perfect. Striving to be the best we can does not mean we need to be perfect, but HONEST. I think this is why the son that tried to speak with Cody moved you so much. I grew up with "Father Knows Best", etc , and people roll their eyes whenever I say that. However, I believe in my entire being, that a show like that, however unrealistic it may be, is worth watching and emulating to the best of my ability. Many of us grew up in homes without such bright examples in our lives, examples provided by the shows most people now roll their eyes at. What shows are there, today, when both parents work and no one is home with the kids teaching them what is right and wrong, to help kids know how to behave? Think about an it...the people in today's programs lie, cheat, steal, put one another down, lie some more, cheat some more...kids grow up thinking this is normal. And emulate it...
> First, non-monogamy has become so normalized that it’s the baseline assumption that I and other women run into while dating.
Not arguing with you, because I'm nowhere near your demographic, and I haven't a clue what it's like to be a 20(?)-something woman. But this is interesting to me, as someone who has been poly for nigh on three decades, as my ... generational experience(?) is the opposite. For the majority of my dating life, the majority of women were not interested in non-monogamy, and I always got that out right up front, because it really *isn't* for everybody, or possibly even *most* people, and that's fine.
Your comments on the last post regarding porn availability to teens via smartphones, and a different article I read the other day regarding social media in general, and the inculcation of obedience to moderators, are *really* starting to make me wonder if this whole "Internet" thing was just a bad idea in general... ;)
The sexual landscape has entirely changed so that men's normal preferences *are* the norm. It used to be that the default to sex was "no" and men had to convince women to say "yes." Now the default is "yes" and women need a reason to say "no." Likewise with poly stuff, and now BDSM/choking/other violent things -- though I think that one is caused by porn. I don't think that's natural to men the way that wanting to have sex quickly and with as many women as possible is.
I didn't realize kink stuff had been so normalized either, given that I also share those interests, though in the context of being asked to participate in such activities. But it would never even occur to me to go fishing for that in non-kink specific pools... *shrug*
> The women must overcome jealousy and insecurity.
This is definitely not only something for the women. But my poly relationships have all been egalitarian.
But, as I say, I don't doubt you, I'm just surprised, I guess. I'm also often not exactly in the loop on modern culture. ;)
It also helped significantly that everyone involved explicitly never wanted children. ;) So a rather different situation than what they're going through.
It seems to me that it must have been changing slowly for a long time and then "real fast" all at once. I'm astounded by this. I really don't even know what to say about it right now.
I think it WAS and IS a bad idea in general. I say that as one who admits to being addicted to my devices and online activity even though I don’t do any social media like X, instagram, tic Tom, Facebook, etc. I would gladly give it up if we could put the genie back in the bottle.
Way back when, in the before-time, polygamy was a necessary component for survival. If a woman's husband died and left her with kids, she had no real means to support herself and her kids other than marrying a man who already had a wife/wives.
Apart from the financial side, the only benefit I can imagine for women is that a man who has more frequent sex is much more likely to have a bit more staying power. After a few years, most women seem to be satisfied with once or twice a week. She only has to be on her game once or twice a week, and also gets the benefit of longer-lasting pleasure because he's getting satisfied nearly daily.
Show me a guy who can last 20 or 30 minutes, I'll show you a guy who's getting laid at least 3X/week.
I say all that, and I can't imagine trying to meet the emotional needs of more than 1 woman. Color me a total monogamist.
I have to wonder, to what extent is "reality TV" truly reality, and how much is at least semi-scripted? My particular reality TV weakness, for a while, was house remodeling shows. And to me, the drama and emotion around them seemed trumped up, if not outright fake, of course omitting a lot of behind-the-scenes details about the work and the business arrangements with the featured house buyers.
The fact that men on the dating market are interested in polyamory or ethical nonmonogamy, in those terms (vs. just wanting FWB).... That surprises me. It's good they're honest though. But it still really surprises me. Is the online dating world populated with married men looking for outside relationships? Is it the local population, or a specific sub-group? Like a trend among techies? I would expect a dating market where women have an advantage (i.e. online dating under 30) for the preferences to be more geared towards what the women want, not the men....are the men having much success with asserting these desires?
The dating market is so oriented towards male norms now. I think most women go for it thinking they're going to be the one who he falls in love with. Which, the story of Kody and Robyn is that story -- that falling in love does sometimes make a guy commit for real.
I am glad that I didn’t have to reinvent the wheel in the many areas of life that today’s young adults are faced with. Throwing out traditional values and institutions seems to be a central identifying element of the neo-enlightenment. Wonder what structures those who are children today will find in place to provide some coherent points of reference.
I was aware that this show existed, but I've never watched an episode. One would think that with all the stories in the Old Testament where polygamy resulted in problems, people would have stopped sooner to ask:
I believe you when you say you've had experiences of men insisting on polyamory, but I hope you can also consider the likelihood that such men are not representative of anything except for perhaps the serial online dating/hook up community.
I've known some polyamorous people and never lasts. It's always very weird. Don't let a few weirdos poison the well.
My husband and I have been fans of this show for the last 3 years having discovered it late in its trajectory. We did, however, go back and watch all previous seasons. Your summary and assessment feel as if I could have written it, although not nearly as well or as comprehensively explained. However, while I've thought of Kody as a narcissist and absolutely believed Robyn knows exactly what she has engineered over the years, I never thought of her as a "covert narcissist." Makes complete sense, but I guess I wonder if these two narcissists can sustain a relationship. Maybe because they somewhat complement each other in their needs, they can make it work. Anyway, thanks for a great summation!
I've previously been in so-called ENM relationships, and my experience is that men can't handle it. They suggest it seemingly believing they'll get tons of sex and be wildly popular, but the way i describe it is that there's a lot more men looking to park a 🍆 than there are "valet services" 😆🤣.
My last boyfriend relationship ended abruptly and callously via email in 2008 and I was a tertiary partner to a married man occasionally til sometime in 2010. I just stopped looking and was inadvertently celibate most of the time, just tired after work and commuting and also an autistic introvert. My last encounter was 2016. Now, since becoming both feminist and older/menopausal plus with significant disabilities since my thyroidectomy January 2021, I'd sooner 🔪 off a 🍆 than put one in me.
"It might help you understand male psychology if you understand that men see themselves as sexual hunters, like proud jungle cats. They pursue their female quarry through the jungles of seduction and then, with grace and power, they pounce. Then they cling to your leg and whine for the rest of their pathetic lives. Male lions also spend most of the day sleeping. My advice to you, my little gazelles, is RUN like HELL"
-- Steve Burgess, "Hey Baby & Other Lies - Chatelaine, June 1999"
As someone who has only been in one relationship so far in his life and it was with someone who thought the concept of polyamory was weird at best and "cheating with extra steps" at worst I have completely missed this whole "oh if you aren't ok with polyamory then that's a step too far" that is seeping into normal culture. I did spend an unfortunately long time on the periphery of what I can only call the Incel Ledge, looking down into their various subreddits and "news" sites, and if it is becoming the norm I can see how lots of guys who would consider monogamy the goal are going mad and swinging the pendulum as far in the other direction as possible. I also don't see how it gets fixed unless a lot, a truly unfortunate amount of 'a lot', of women and men end up in situations like this where they realize that having a romantic partner who "loves" them is different from having a partner who is "in love" with them.
The only solution I see is for a lot of women to become confident and secure enough to be alone for a long time, if necessary, and go into dating understanding that it's to their advantage (on every level) and to the guy's advantage, too, if a relationship is going to be long-term, to delay sex for awhile, AND to refuse to settle for non-monogamy or engage in kink bullshit. I am not hopeful.
Unfortunately that is something that a combination of male dating practices/porn consumption, "Girl boss culture" at least in regards to the angle of "if he screws up even once then you can do better", and the whole poly movement, in regards to its attachment to the larger Rainbow Flag political activism, seem hell bent on ensuring does not happen. So I suppose I share your pessimism in regards to this.
There's absolutely a TON of what you've said, and I'm not denying it. Men and women both have to be willing to change dating practices, and I just don't see it. I've been ghosted twice by guys who had non-Woke stuff in their profiles because I wasn't sleeping with them after knowing them for four hours. (First dates that definitely went well enough, up to that point, that I think any outside observer would've expected them to lead to second dates.) Men who understand the principles involved in this stuff often seem to want to say the right things but not act accordingly. Which is part of the problem, too.
Again my limited experience is talking, but I find that baffling given that I didn't even realize my past partner was into me at first until she literally invited me into her apartment, after we had hung our for some time together and I had been assisting her with some life stuff as well for just under a month, and she straight up started making out with me and continued on from there. Also my unfortunate para-social tendencies are showing but I hope you do well on the dating front if and when you do go back into it. Hopefully you do manage to find a guy who is willing to wait. I have to imagine unfortunately that there a sizeable segment of the non-woke side of men who are also doing it cause they do indeed want a wife who just stays home and is available for sex whenever and where ever. Even if they aren't looking for the 100 percent "Trad-Wife" they are still hoping to get the easy access to sex that you would think, if they read what you write and what you talk about regarding your past, they should know is absolutely not something that is going to be happening.
Ya nailed it! So many women fail to grasp the legitimate power they have regarding picking and choosing. Instead, they've entered a 'Race to the Bottom' by getting physical with men (serially, I assume here) because they believe they are competing with women who are even looser. What's the saying? "Good things come to those who wait."
I wasn't a subscriber back in 2022, so I didn't see this one until now. As a writer, I'm fascinated by the human drama involved, but as a human being I would feel like those people who can't stop looking at a train wreck.
I've always been religious, in the true sense that I sincerely recite the Nicene Creed and try my best to live by the ten commandments. That doesn't make me sinless. The first commandment is still the most important one.
There's nothing ethical about so-called ethical non-monogamy. If you've ever read the bible, you know how well polygamy works out in practice even if think you can find some kind of civilizational necessity for it.
I'm a baby boomer, so I saw the effects of theoretically reproduction-free sex on the culture. Not saying it was great before, but, as I used to tell people back then, "It used to be that if a guy got a woman pregnant outside marriage, he was forced to marry her (even if at gunpoint) or driven out of town in shame, not usually an ideal situation. Now, if a guy gets a woman pregnant out of marriage, and he offers to pay for half the abortion, he's considered a mensch. The first situation may have been bad, but how is the latter situation better for the woman? That doesn't sound like feminism to me."
I sincerely hope that the dating situation you describe is mostly a product of Manhattan/DC media navel-gazing rather than the way things are everywhere now in our culture. But then I'm a pathetic old fogey who only ever had sex with one woman, the woman I love and adored for our 41 years of marriage until she fell asleep in the Lord two years ago.
Yes, I had offers back in the day, but turned them down. And, no, our path to a wonderful life together was not a straight and easy one. Neither one of us was perfect, but as one friend put it, "You guys just love each other and always try to do the right thing." I hope everybody finds that.
Thanks Karen. I try to be a voice of reason. I'm just starting on Medium. I have my own website that's mostly non-political at http://frank-hood.com, I think Medium is a more appropriate place for political/social stuff, but, obviously, who I am seeps into everything I write. Cosmic hugs.
Seriously? I had no idea. I’m motivated to do some research!
What an absolute cluster fuck. I laughed at your massive 'notalls' notice. As far as trashy TV goes I've always been partial to 90 day fiance before the 90 days. It's madness. Madness I tell you!
It really is. I’m so proud of Christine for getting out. She grew up in that religion, and I know from personal experience how hard it is to walk away from something you’ve been steeped in all your life. She’s amazing.
The numbers were helpful. I've read a ton of Russian novels and it still required a bit of mental mapping to put it all in order. Yeah that must be quite the thing. I remember how much I needed to re learn when I stumbled out of the woke fog in my early 20's. I can only imagine how much bigger that would be for someone who's been in it their whole life, all wrapped up in spirituality and the community and everything. Quite the journey.
I fking LOVE her qualifying, note-to-reader statements. I love her writing and content, sure, but it's idiosyncrasies like this that are at least as endearing as the writing itself. Because I get it. I personally don't bother with "not alls" because we're adults, nuance is a default. If you treat someone's personal opinion like a blanket statement and affront to your "lived experience" you're a moron who should have the internet taken away from you and replaced with a See n' Say until you can have mature interactions.
This is a reality show, right? I've never watched any t.v. reality shows, and honestly, I was pretty surprised when you first mentioned your enthusiasm about Sister Wives. Glad you decided to explain what there is about it that keeps you engaged and fascinated.
Regarding Kody, I think he represents what most men, who are relatively "normal", want in their love interest or mate, and that's RESPECT, coupled with a fair amount of submissiveness from the woman. Humans simply haven't evolved far enough for this to no longer be part of what men need (and women, too) in a relationship with a woman.
Most of you will probably hate me for saying this, but I believe wide use of the birth control pill, starting in the 60's, felled the main pillar that was holding up positive male/female relationships and marriage in general. I know it certainly affected my relationships. That and First Wave Feminism, which of course, I totally signed on to. Promoting women and men as equals in terms of their psychology and innate characteristics has caused a butt-load of problems for the institution of marriage. I used to believe that monogamy was out-dated and even harmful to marriage. After 3 divorces, I finally wised up. Sighhhhh, some people (like me) are just slow learners.
I don't believe in the idea of a soul-mate. I really wouldn't be surprised if Kody and the 4th wife don't end up divorced.
I don't hate you, LOL. But I think if you're right about this, it needed to fall. If so many women were so miserable that the ability to delay/space/avoid pregnancy caused the institution of marriage to die, then it needed to die. An institution built on 50% of human beings being that miserable is not a good institution.
The birth control pill, speaking only for myself, was a guarantee (at least for me) that I wouldn't have a child until I purposefully made the decision to get pregnant. Not having a child out of wedlock (as was I and my twin), was my main objective. If I hadn't had access to birth control like the pill, I would have been much more circumspect in my sexual behavior, which in my case would have been a plus. I would have also used the next most reliable method to avoid pregnancy, and if I got pregnant as a result, then it would be no one's fault but my own. My personal code of ethics includes taking full responsibility for the consequences of bringing a new life into the world, so short of celibacy, I would use every means available, except abortion, to avoid an unplanned pregnancy. The birth control pill saved me from the consequences of my behavior and I will always be grateful for that.
I don't take a rigid, hard stand against abortion. I believe it must be available in the case of incest, rape, or saving the life of the mother. What I am against is the careless use of it due to a woman's irresponsible lack of concern for her actions and relying on abortion to fix the mistake. Unfortunately, innocent mistakes do happen. I also believe that marriage is a cornerstone of a stable culture and the best environment in which to raise children. Of my 3 marriages, I had no children in the first two. My 3rd marriage, for the most part a happy and harmonious one, lasted long after my only child grew to adulthood. My ex and I remain friends. I don't think marriage becoming extinct is a good thing.
You and I sound as if we are from the same generation, and I confess to having some of the same thoughts about birth control. And I don't necessarily think women were miserable; I think probably both men and women had to accept and deal with situations that while not ideal, certainly were not "awful." Stable homes in which to raise and launch children are a huge reason not to divorce. I say that as a woman with more than one divorce under my belt. I would make several changes in my decisions if I could do it over again.
For sure, you and me both!
"It was so steady and so clearly a baseline norm. Announcing one wanted monogamy, and wanted it enough that it was a deal-breaker, was akin to announcing a bizarre deal-breaker, something like not allowing the color blue to be worn in one’s presence. It was so fully normalized that anyone who objected to it was taken to owe an explanation for this oddness."
Seriously? I've only been out of the dating market for 8 years and this was NOT the norm. The attitude was super accepting but few people participated and nobody was judgmental if someone was strictly monogamous.
You answered your own question, I think -- where was "non-binary" 8 years ago? Now it's a whole thing in court and in charge of the nukes.
I wonder if the Amish have any openings....
I already have the beard!
Not a pun I assume
No sir. If i was convinced that it wasn't a cowardly way out and would likely result in overall worse outcomes for my children i would seriously consider joining some sort of insular community.
That was my first reaction! I am so clearly out of the loop when it comes to dating/relationships now. I had no idea that polyamory was the baseline norm.
The language is sticky, as (sort of like "feminist" and "Christian" and lots of other words) people have their own definitions. But *in general*, polyamory is about wanting to have more than one ongoing/longterm *relationship* whereas ENM (ethical non-monogamy) is basically "I'm gonna screw around, sometimes with women I'm in relationships with, sometimes not, but I won't lie about it so you should approve."
I've seen stuff related to this on reddit, etc., how do real people stand it?
Polygamy/polyamory just seem like a nightmare to me. Having that kind of emotionally intimate relationship with just one person is difficult enough. Trying to juggle it with one or more other only seems possible with a level of detachment that would make the whole thing moot.
And I can’t imagine trying to be a father to so many children. Though it sounds like Kody just isn’t being one.
I can't watch trashy shows and prefer shows that push me to a better me - even if one might consider them unrealistic. There's a reason we have always "put our best foot forward", and that "leading by example" is important even if one isn't perfect. Striving to be the best we can does not mean we need to be perfect, but HONEST. I think this is why the son that tried to speak with Cody moved you so much. I grew up with "Father Knows Best", etc , and people roll their eyes whenever I say that. However, I believe in my entire being, that a show like that, however unrealistic it may be, is worth watching and emulating to the best of my ability. Many of us grew up in homes without such bright examples in our lives, examples provided by the shows most people now roll their eyes at. What shows are there, today, when both parents work and no one is home with the kids teaching them what is right and wrong, to help kids know how to behave? Think about an it...the people in today's programs lie, cheat, steal, put one another down, lie some more, cheat some more...kids grow up thinking this is normal. And emulate it...
What a difficult world it is.
> First, non-monogamy has become so normalized that it’s the baseline assumption that I and other women run into while dating.
Not arguing with you, because I'm nowhere near your demographic, and I haven't a clue what it's like to be a 20(?)-something woman. But this is interesting to me, as someone who has been poly for nigh on three decades, as my ... generational experience(?) is the opposite. For the majority of my dating life, the majority of women were not interested in non-monogamy, and I always got that out right up front, because it really *isn't* for everybody, or possibly even *most* people, and that's fine.
Your comments on the last post regarding porn availability to teens via smartphones, and a different article I read the other day regarding social media in general, and the inculcation of obedience to moderators, are *really* starting to make me wonder if this whole "Internet" thing was just a bad idea in general... ;)
The sexual landscape has entirely changed so that men's normal preferences *are* the norm. It used to be that the default to sex was "no" and men had to convince women to say "yes." Now the default is "yes" and women need a reason to say "no." Likewise with poly stuff, and now BDSM/choking/other violent things -- though I think that one is caused by porn. I don't think that's natural to men the way that wanting to have sex quickly and with as many women as possible is.
I didn't realize kink stuff had been so normalized either, given that I also share those interests, though in the context of being asked to participate in such activities. But it would never even occur to me to go fishing for that in non-kink specific pools... *shrug*
> The women must overcome jealousy and insecurity.
This is definitely not only something for the women. But my poly relationships have all been egalitarian.
But, as I say, I don't doubt you, I'm just surprised, I guess. I'm also often not exactly in the loop on modern culture. ;)
It also helped significantly that everyone involved explicitly never wanted children. ;) So a rather different situation than what they're going through.
It seems to me that it must have been changing slowly for a long time and then "real fast" all at once. I'm astounded by this. I really don't even know what to say about it right now.
I think it WAS and IS a bad idea in general. I say that as one who admits to being addicted to my devices and online activity even though I don’t do any social media like X, instagram, tic Tom, Facebook, etc. I would gladly give it up if we could put the genie back in the bottle.
Way back when, in the before-time, polygamy was a necessary component for survival. If a woman's husband died and left her with kids, she had no real means to support herself and her kids other than marrying a man who already had a wife/wives.
Apart from the financial side, the only benefit I can imagine for women is that a man who has more frequent sex is much more likely to have a bit more staying power. After a few years, most women seem to be satisfied with once or twice a week. She only has to be on her game once or twice a week, and also gets the benefit of longer-lasting pleasure because he's getting satisfied nearly daily.
Show me a guy who can last 20 or 30 minutes, I'll show you a guy who's getting laid at least 3X/week.
I say all that, and I can't imagine trying to meet the emotional needs of more than 1 woman. Color me a total monogamist.
I have to wonder, to what extent is "reality TV" truly reality, and how much is at least semi-scripted? My particular reality TV weakness, for a while, was house remodeling shows. And to me, the drama and emotion around them seemed trumped up, if not outright fake, of course omitting a lot of behind-the-scenes details about the work and the business arrangements with the featured house buyers.
The fact that men on the dating market are interested in polyamory or ethical nonmonogamy, in those terms (vs. just wanting FWB).... That surprises me. It's good they're honest though. But it still really surprises me. Is the online dating world populated with married men looking for outside relationships? Is it the local population, or a specific sub-group? Like a trend among techies? I would expect a dating market where women have an advantage (i.e. online dating under 30) for the preferences to be more geared towards what the women want, not the men....are the men having much success with asserting these desires?
The dating market is so oriented towards male norms now. I think most women go for it thinking they're going to be the one who he falls in love with. Which, the story of Kody and Robyn is that story -- that falling in love does sometimes make a guy commit for real.
I am glad that I didn’t have to reinvent the wheel in the many areas of life that today’s young adults are faced with. Throwing out traditional values and institutions seems to be a central identifying element of the neo-enlightenment. Wonder what structures those who are children today will find in place to provide some coherent points of reference.
I was aware that this show existed, but I've never watched an episode. One would think that with all the stories in the Old Testament where polygamy resulted in problems, people would have stopped sooner to ask:
"How's that working for you"?
I believe you when you say you've had experiences of men insisting on polyamory, but I hope you can also consider the likelihood that such men are not representative of anything except for perhaps the serial online dating/hook up community.
I've known some polyamorous people and never lasts. It's always very weird. Don't let a few weirdos poison the well.
My husband and I have been fans of this show for the last 3 years having discovered it late in its trajectory. We did, however, go back and watch all previous seasons. Your summary and assessment feel as if I could have written it, although not nearly as well or as comprehensively explained. However, while I've thought of Kody as a narcissist and absolutely believed Robyn knows exactly what she has engineered over the years, I never thought of her as a "covert narcissist." Makes complete sense, but I guess I wonder if these two narcissists can sustain a relationship. Maybe because they somewhat complement each other in their needs, they can make it work. Anyway, thanks for a great summation!
Wow, that's a crazy situation.
🗑️🔥🚹
Kody looks like Dog the Bounty Hunter.
I'm with the movie character here:
https://youtu.be/8CTt2W-ntW8
I've previously been in so-called ENM relationships, and my experience is that men can't handle it. They suggest it seemingly believing they'll get tons of sex and be wildly popular, but the way i describe it is that there's a lot more men looking to park a 🍆 than there are "valet services" 😆🤣.
My last boyfriend relationship ended abruptly and callously via email in 2008 and I was a tertiary partner to a married man occasionally til sometime in 2010. I just stopped looking and was inadvertently celibate most of the time, just tired after work and commuting and also an autistic introvert. My last encounter was 2016. Now, since becoming both feminist and older/menopausal plus with significant disabilities since my thyroidectomy January 2021, I'd sooner 🔪 off a 🍆 than put one in me.
"It might help you understand male psychology if you understand that men see themselves as sexual hunters, like proud jungle cats. They pursue their female quarry through the jungles of seduction and then, with grace and power, they pounce. Then they cling to your leg and whine for the rest of their pathetic lives. Male lions also spend most of the day sleeping. My advice to you, my little gazelles, is RUN like HELL"
-- Steve Burgess, "Hey Baby & Other Lies - Chatelaine, June 1999"
As someone who has only been in one relationship so far in his life and it was with someone who thought the concept of polyamory was weird at best and "cheating with extra steps" at worst I have completely missed this whole "oh if you aren't ok with polyamory then that's a step too far" that is seeping into normal culture. I did spend an unfortunately long time on the periphery of what I can only call the Incel Ledge, looking down into their various subreddits and "news" sites, and if it is becoming the norm I can see how lots of guys who would consider monogamy the goal are going mad and swinging the pendulum as far in the other direction as possible. I also don't see how it gets fixed unless a lot, a truly unfortunate amount of 'a lot', of women and men end up in situations like this where they realize that having a romantic partner who "loves" them is different from having a partner who is "in love" with them.
The only solution I see is for a lot of women to become confident and secure enough to be alone for a long time, if necessary, and go into dating understanding that it's to their advantage (on every level) and to the guy's advantage, too, if a relationship is going to be long-term, to delay sex for awhile, AND to refuse to settle for non-monogamy or engage in kink bullshit. I am not hopeful.
Unfortunately that is something that a combination of male dating practices/porn consumption, "Girl boss culture" at least in regards to the angle of "if he screws up even once then you can do better", and the whole poly movement, in regards to its attachment to the larger Rainbow Flag political activism, seem hell bent on ensuring does not happen. So I suppose I share your pessimism in regards to this.
There's absolutely a TON of what you've said, and I'm not denying it. Men and women both have to be willing to change dating practices, and I just don't see it. I've been ghosted twice by guys who had non-Woke stuff in their profiles because I wasn't sleeping with them after knowing them for four hours. (First dates that definitely went well enough, up to that point, that I think any outside observer would've expected them to lead to second dates.) Men who understand the principles involved in this stuff often seem to want to say the right things but not act accordingly. Which is part of the problem, too.
Again my limited experience is talking, but I find that baffling given that I didn't even realize my past partner was into me at first until she literally invited me into her apartment, after we had hung our for some time together and I had been assisting her with some life stuff as well for just under a month, and she straight up started making out with me and continued on from there. Also my unfortunate para-social tendencies are showing but I hope you do well on the dating front if and when you do go back into it. Hopefully you do manage to find a guy who is willing to wait. I have to imagine unfortunately that there a sizeable segment of the non-woke side of men who are also doing it cause they do indeed want a wife who just stays home and is available for sex whenever and where ever. Even if they aren't looking for the 100 percent "Trad-Wife" they are still hoping to get the easy access to sex that you would think, if they read what you write and what you talk about regarding your past, they should know is absolutely not something that is going to be happening.
Ya nailed it! So many women fail to grasp the legitimate power they have regarding picking and choosing. Instead, they've entered a 'Race to the Bottom' by getting physical with men (serially, I assume here) because they believe they are competing with women who are even looser. What's the saying? "Good things come to those who wait."
I wasn't a subscriber back in 2022, so I didn't see this one until now. As a writer, I'm fascinated by the human drama involved, but as a human being I would feel like those people who can't stop looking at a train wreck.
I've always been religious, in the true sense that I sincerely recite the Nicene Creed and try my best to live by the ten commandments. That doesn't make me sinless. The first commandment is still the most important one.
There's nothing ethical about so-called ethical non-monogamy. If you've ever read the bible, you know how well polygamy works out in practice even if think you can find some kind of civilizational necessity for it.
I'm a baby boomer, so I saw the effects of theoretically reproduction-free sex on the culture. Not saying it was great before, but, as I used to tell people back then, "It used to be that if a guy got a woman pregnant outside marriage, he was forced to marry her (even if at gunpoint) or driven out of town in shame, not usually an ideal situation. Now, if a guy gets a woman pregnant out of marriage, and he offers to pay for half the abortion, he's considered a mensch. The first situation may have been bad, but how is the latter situation better for the woman? That doesn't sound like feminism to me."
I sincerely hope that the dating situation you describe is mostly a product of Manhattan/DC media navel-gazing rather than the way things are everywhere now in our culture. But then I'm a pathetic old fogey who only ever had sex with one woman, the woman I love and adored for our 41 years of marriage until she fell asleep in the Lord two years ago.
Yes, I had offers back in the day, but turned them down. And, no, our path to a wonderful life together was not a straight and easy one. Neither one of us was perfect, but as one friend put it, "You guys just love each other and always try to do the right thing." I hope everybody finds that.
Your comment is a breath of fresh air. So sorry for your loss.
Thanks Karen. I try to be a voice of reason. I'm just starting on Medium. I have my own website that's mostly non-political at http://frank-hood.com, I think Medium is a more appropriate place for political/social stuff, but, obviously, who I am seeps into everything I write. Cosmic hugs.