48 Comments

What an absolute cluster fuck. I laughed at your massive 'notalls' notice. As far as trashy TV goes I've always been partial to 90 day fiance before the 90 days. It's madness. Madness I tell you!

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This is a reality show, right? I've never watched any t.v. reality shows, and honestly, I was pretty surprised when you first mentioned your enthusiasm about Sister Wives. Glad you decided to explain what there is about it that keeps you engaged and fascinated.

Regarding Kody, I think he represents what most men, who are relatively "normal", want in their love interest or mate, and that's RESPECT, coupled with a fair amount of submissiveness from the woman. Humans simply haven't evolved far enough for this to no longer be part of what men need (and women, too) in a relationship with a woman.

Most of you will probably hate me for saying this, but I believe wide use of the birth control pill, starting in the 60's, felled the main pillar that was holding up positive male/female relationships and marriage in general. I know it certainly affected my relationships. That and First Wave Feminism, which of course, I totally signed on to. Promoting women and men as equals in terms of their psychology and innate characteristics has caused a butt-load of problems for the institution of marriage. I used to believe that monogamy was out-dated and even harmful to marriage. After 3 divorces, I finally wised up. Sighhhhh, some people (like me) are just slow learners.

I don't believe in the idea of a soul-mate. I really wouldn't be surprised if Kody and the 4th wife don't end up divorced.

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Dec 5, 2022Liked by Holly MathNerd

"It was so steady and so clearly a baseline norm. Announcing one wanted monogamy, and wanted it enough that it was a deal-breaker, was akin to announcing a bizarre deal-breaker, something like not allowing the color blue to be worn in one’s presence. It was so fully normalized that anyone who objected to it was taken to owe an explanation for this oddness."

Seriously? I've only been out of the dating market for 8 years and this was NOT the norm. The attitude was super accepting but few people participated and nobody was judgmental if someone was strictly monogamous.

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Polygamy/polyamory just seem like a nightmare to me. Having that kind of emotionally intimate relationship with just one person is difficult enough. Trying to juggle it with one or more other only seems possible with a level of detachment that would make the whole thing moot.

And I can’t imagine trying to be a father to so many children. Though it sounds like Kody just isn’t being one.

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Dec 5, 2022Liked by Holly MathNerd

I can't watch trashy shows and prefer shows that push me to a better me - even if one might consider them unrealistic. There's a reason we have always "put our best foot forward", and that "leading by example" is important even if one isn't perfect. Striving to be the best we can does not mean we need to be perfect, but HONEST. I think this is why the son that tried to speak with Cody moved you so much. I grew up with "Father Knows Best", etc , and people roll their eyes whenever I say that. However, I believe in my entire being, that a show like that, however unrealistic it may be, is worth watching and emulating to the best of my ability. Many of us grew up in homes without such bright examples in our lives, examples provided by the shows most people now roll their eyes at. What shows are there, today, when both parents work and no one is home with the kids teaching them what is right and wrong, to help kids know how to behave? Think about an it...the people in today's programs lie, cheat, steal, put one another down, lie some more, cheat some more...kids grow up thinking this is normal. And emulate it...

What a difficult world it is.

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Dec 5, 2022Liked by Holly MathNerd

> First, non-monogamy has become so normalized that it’s the baseline assumption that I and other women run into while dating.

Not arguing with you, because I'm nowhere near your demographic, and I haven't a clue what it's like to be a 20(?)-something woman. But this is interesting to me, as someone who has been poly for nigh on three decades, as my ... generational experience(?) is the opposite. For the majority of my dating life, the majority of women were not interested in non-monogamy, and I always got that out right up front, because it really *isn't* for everybody, or possibly even *most* people, and that's fine.

Your comments on the last post regarding porn availability to teens via smartphones, and a different article I read the other day regarding social media in general, and the inculcation of obedience to moderators, are *really* starting to make me wonder if this whole "Internet" thing was just a bad idea in general... ;)

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Way back when, in the before-time, polygamy was a necessary component for survival. If a woman's husband died and left her with kids, she had no real means to support herself and her kids other than marrying a man who already had a wife/wives.

Apart from the financial side, the only benefit I can imagine for women is that a man who has more frequent sex is much more likely to have a bit more staying power. After a few years, most women seem to be satisfied with once or twice a week. She only has to be on her game once or twice a week, and also gets the benefit of longer-lasting pleasure because he's getting satisfied nearly daily.

Show me a guy who can last 20 or 30 minutes, I'll show you a guy who's getting laid at least 3X/week.

I say all that, and I can't imagine trying to meet the emotional needs of more than 1 woman. Color me a total monogamist.

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Dec 5, 2022Liked by Holly MathNerd

I have to wonder, to what extent is "reality TV" truly reality, and how much is at least semi-scripted? My particular reality TV weakness, for a while, was house remodeling shows. And to me, the drama and emotion around them seemed trumped up, if not outright fake, of course omitting a lot of behind-the-scenes details about the work and the business arrangements with the featured house buyers.

The fact that men on the dating market are interested in polyamory or ethical nonmonogamy, in those terms (vs. just wanting FWB).... That surprises me. It's good they're honest though. But it still really surprises me. Is the online dating world populated with married men looking for outside relationships? Is it the local population, or a specific sub-group? Like a trend among techies? I would expect a dating market where women have an advantage (i.e. online dating under 30) for the preferences to be more geared towards what the women want, not the men....are the men having much success with asserting these desires?

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I am glad that I didn’t have to reinvent the wheel in the many areas of life that today’s young adults are faced with. Throwing out traditional values and institutions seems to be a central identifying element of the neo-enlightenment. Wonder what structures those who are children today will find in place to provide some coherent points of reference.

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I was aware that this show existed, but I've never watched an episode. One would think that with all the stories in the Old Testament where polygamy resulted in problems, people would have stopped sooner to ask:

"How's that working for you"?

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I believe you when you say you've had experiences of men insisting on polyamory, but I hope you can also consider the likelihood that such men are not representative of anything except for perhaps the serial online dating/hook up community.

I've known some polyamorous people and never lasts. It's always very weird. Don't let a few weirdos poison the well.

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Nov 27, 2023·edited Nov 27, 2023

My husband and I have been fans of this show for the last 3 years having discovered it late in its trajectory. We did, however, go back and watch all previous seasons. Your summary and assessment feel as if I could have written it, although not nearly as well or as comprehensively explained. However, while I've thought of Kody as a narcissist and absolutely believed Robyn knows exactly what she has engineered over the years, I never thought of her as a "covert narcissist." Makes complete sense, but I guess I wonder if these two narcissists can sustain a relationship. Maybe because they somewhat complement each other in their needs, they can make it work. Anyway, thanks for a great summation!

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Wow, that's a crazy situation.

🗑️🔥🚹

Kody looks like Dog the Bounty Hunter.

I'm with the movie character here:

https://youtu.be/8CTt2W-ntW8

I've previously been in so-called ENM relationships, and my experience is that men can't handle it. They suggest it seemingly believing they'll get tons of sex and be wildly popular, but the way i describe it is that there's a lot more men looking to park a 🍆 than there are "valet services" 😆🤣.

My last boyfriend relationship ended abruptly and callously via email in 2008 and I was a tertiary partner to a married man occasionally til sometime in 2010. I just stopped looking and was inadvertently celibate most of the time, just tired after work and commuting and also an autistic introvert. My last encounter was 2016. Now, since becoming both feminist and older/menopausal plus with significant disabilities since my thyroidectomy January 2021, I'd sooner 🔪 off a 🍆 than put one in me.

"It might help you understand male psychology if you understand that men see themselves as sexual hunters, like proud jungle cats. They pursue their female quarry through the jungles of seduction and then, with grace and power, they pounce. Then they cling to your leg and whine for the rest of their pathetic lives. Male lions also spend most of the day sleeping. My advice to you, my little gazelles, is RUN like HELL"

-- Steve Burgess, "Hey Baby & Other Lies - Chatelaine, June 1999"

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Nov 27, 2023Liked by Holly MathNerd

As someone who has only been in one relationship so far in his life and it was with someone who thought the concept of polyamory was weird at best and "cheating with extra steps" at worst I have completely missed this whole "oh if you aren't ok with polyamory then that's a step too far" that is seeping into normal culture. I did spend an unfortunately long time on the periphery of what I can only call the Incel Ledge, looking down into their various subreddits and "news" sites, and if it is becoming the norm I can see how lots of guys who would consider monogamy the goal are going mad and swinging the pendulum as far in the other direction as possible. I also don't see how it gets fixed unless a lot, a truly unfortunate amount of 'a lot', of women and men end up in situations like this where they realize that having a romantic partner who "loves" them is different from having a partner who is "in love" with them.

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Nov 27, 2023Liked by Holly MathNerd

I wasn't a subscriber back in 2022, so I didn't see this one until now. As a writer, I'm fascinated by the human drama involved, but as a human being I would feel like those people who can't stop looking at a train wreck.

I've always been religious, in the true sense that I sincerely recite the Nicene Creed and try my best to live by the ten commandments. That doesn't make me sinless. The first commandment is still the most important one.

There's nothing ethical about so-called ethical non-monogamy. If you've ever read the bible, you know how well polygamy works out in practice even if think you can find some kind of civilizational necessity for it.

I'm a baby boomer, so I saw the effects of theoretically reproduction-free sex on the culture. Not saying it was great before, but, as I used to tell people back then, "It used to be that if a guy got a woman pregnant outside marriage, he was forced to marry her (even if at gunpoint) or driven out of town in shame, not usually an ideal situation. Now, if a guy gets a woman pregnant out of marriage, and he offers to pay for half the abortion, he's considered a mensch. The first situation may have been bad, but how is the latter situation better for the woman? That doesn't sound like feminism to me."

I sincerely hope that the dating situation you describe is mostly a product of Manhattan/DC media navel-gazing rather than the way things are everywhere now in our culture. But then I'm a pathetic old fogey who only ever had sex with one woman, the woman I love and adored for our 41 years of marriage until she fell asleep in the Lord two years ago.

Yes, I had offers back in the day, but turned them down. And, no, our path to a wonderful life together was not a straight and easy one. Neither one of us was perfect, but as one friend put it, "You guys just love each other and always try to do the right thing." I hope everybody finds that.

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Reminds me why I have no patience for adults who behave like children. Grown ups that can't get past their own childhood, seem to always end up as malignant narcissists. Kudos to the kids that weathered the shit storm that their parents put them through.

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